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Old 10-04-2010, 04:01 PM   #1
SJR
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Angry Obama Health Care And Sales Tax On Selling Your Home

Received this from my friend (Realtor) and no matter what I show her, she will not believe me! Keeps telling me this is coming from their conferences in Austin and Washington. What do you do when you present facts to someone and they refuse to admit they are wrong? I sent her the link to Snopes too but she said Snopes was run by the Dems!

http://www.snopes.com/politics/taxes/realestate.asp

*******

THIS IS TOTALLY INCREDIBLE HOW IGNORANT WE ARE BY LETTING THESE SO-CALLED "REPRESENTATIVES" OF OUR NATION ARE TAXING US TO DEATH. PLEASE FORWARD TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW.


I don't usually send things out unless I know it's true so please forgive me on this one. Can someone please confirm with fact if this is true? I've not heard anything about this until I got the e-mail...
Did you know that if you sell your house after 2012 you will pay a 3.8% sales tax on it? That's $3,800 on a $100,000 home etc.
When did this happen? It's in the healthcare bill. Just thought you should know.


SALES TAX TO GO INTO EFFECT 2013 (Part of HC Bill)REAL ESTATE SALES TAX


So, this is "change you can believe in"?
Under the new health care bill - did you know that all real estate transactions will be subject to a 3.8% Sales Tax? The bulk of these new taxes don't kick in until 2013 (presumably after Obama re-election). You can thank Nancy,Harry and Barack and your local Democrat Congressman for this one. If you sell your $400,000 home, there will be a $15,200 tax. This bill is set to screw the retiring generation who often downsize their homes. Is this Hope & Change great or what? Does this stuff makes your November and 2012 votes more important?
Oh, you weren't aware this was in the emigre bill? Guess what, you aren't alone. There are more than a few members of Congress that aren't aware of
it either (result of clandestine midnight voting for huge bills they've never read). AND, there are a few other surprises lurking.
Why am I sending you this? The same reason I hope you forward this to every single person in your address book.

People have the right to know the truth because an election is coming in November!


********


I responded with the following:

In his recent guest column regarding the impact of the health care bill, Paul Guppy of the Washington Policy Center claimed that a 3.8 percent tax on all home sales was a part of the recently passed legislation. This is inaccurate and needs to be corrected. The truth about the bill is that if you sell your home for a profit above the capital gains threshold of $250,000 per individual or $500,000 per couple then you would be required to pay the additional 3.8 percent tax on any gain realized over this threshold.
Most people who sell their homes will not be impacted by these new regulations. This is not a new tax on every seller, and that correction needs to be made. This tax is aimed at so-called “high earners” – if you do not fall into that category you will not pay any extra taxes upon the sale of your home.
Sara Orrange Government affairs director
Spokane Association of Realtors
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/201...tax-clarified/
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Old 10-04-2010, 04:20 PM   #2
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I run into the same thing, present facts and am dismissed. I have been told that the Annenberg site is all lies and faked too. All you can do then is just change the subject.
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Old 10-04-2010, 04:28 PM   #3
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I know Marina, but I get so tired of all the crappy emails! I told DH I was going to ask her to take me off her email list but he said I shouldn't do that and to quit reading her emails.
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Old 10-04-2010, 04:32 PM   #4
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SJR.....

I would imagine if you were ever in the position to sell your home, you probably wouldn't go through this misinformed realtor?

Unreal, she's spreading lies. It's wrong on 2 accounts.

1. She will probably alienate many Liberals, therefore eliminating 1 out of 2 people that could possibly use her services.
2. She's misinformed about this. How many other real estate issues is she misinformed about?
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Old 10-04-2010, 04:43 PM   #5
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I don't know Sue! I do know I would have a lawyer check and make sure I'm not overpaying on taxes. She probably isn't alienating any liberals because I'm probably the only liberal friend she has! DH and I saw a sign for the Dem running for governor in Texas the other day. We both started laughing and made the remark that there were more than two Dems in the county!

She sent me an email the other day about something in the cap and trade bill stating you had to have an energy audit on your home before you could sell it. I sent her the FactCheck link on the subject and didn't hear back from her! I guess she accepted the fact she was wrong on it but she will not give up on the tax increase.
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Last edited by SJR; 10-04-2010 at 04:47 PM.
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Old 10-04-2010, 05:02 PM   #6
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I have a friend that sends me those kinds of emails. They are always, and I'm not exaggerating, proven false. I always send her the links.

The thing is, otherwise, she is a really nice person. We never discuss politics in person, but I will say this, when I had a choice whether or not to sit at a picnic with her and another guy who I know likes to discuss politics........I sat elsewhere. I really didn't think she would bring up politics, but after having sat with the other guy at a picnic last year...I know he has no problem bringing up politics and how Fox News is so great.

I almost got chills when I saw them sitting together. I thought to myself, nope.....I'm not going to sit and listen to someone else's views on politics. I hate biting my tongue, and the way the conversations are initiated.....it could only down a wrong path.
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Old 10-04-2010, 05:13 PM   #7
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I never send her political emails. Guess I should start forwarding her the emails I get from Obama!
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Old 10-04-2010, 05:55 PM   #8
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I beg to differ with you but this is true. In 2012 everyone who sells a house will have to pay 3 1/2 percent sales tax on a house they sell. Not on the profit but on the sales price. It was pushed through with the Health Care bill. Our National Home Builders Association has been fighting this bill for several years but lost the battle. Even the Democrats in the building industry were helping us to fight this bill.
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Old 10-04-2010, 06:00 PM   #9
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So it really is true? OK, I thought by the info I sent my friend that it was wrong.

Thanks for letting me know Kayhil (I think)! This means I have to go tell her I was wrong!!!!
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Old 10-04-2010, 06:02 PM   #10
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It is not a sales tax but rather a tax for Medicare (I know, a tax is tax but still it is not a "sales" tax). And, the tax will not be levied on all homes...only on those homes that are above a certain monetary threshold - Please open the snopes link and read it -

http://www.snopes.com/politics/taxes/realestate.asp
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Old 10-04-2010, 06:03 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJR View Post
So it really is true? OK, I thought by the info I sent my friend that it was wrong.

Thanks for letting me know Kayhil (I think)! This means I have to go tell her I was wrong!!!!
You are not wrong SJR...the e-mail contains alot of misinformation about what the tax is and whom it will affect. Read the Snopes link for the break down.
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Old 10-04-2010, 06:06 PM   #12
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Hmmmm, even Factcheck.org says it not correct. Wonder how we find out for sure.

http://www.factcheck.org/2010/04/a-3...-on-your-home/

FULL ANSWER
We’ve been flooded with queries about this one ever since the health care bill became law. At the last minute, Democratic lawmakers decided on a new 3.8 percent tax on the net investment income of high-income persons. But the claim that this would amount to a $15,200 tax on the sale of a typical $400,000 home is utterly false.
The truth is that only a tiny percentage of home sellers will pay the tax. First of all, only those with incomes over $200,000 a year ($250,000 for married couples filing jointly) will be subject to it. And even for those who have such high incomes, the tax still won’t apply to the first $250,000 on profits from the sale of a personal residence — or to the first $500,000 in the case of a married couple selling their home.
We can understand how this misconception got started. The law itself is couched in highly technical language that only a qualified tax expert can fully grasp. (This provision begins on page 33 of the reconciliation bill that was passed and signed into law.) And it does say the tax falls on "net gain … attributable to the disposition of property." That would include the sale of a home. But the bill also says the tax falls only on that portion of any gain that is "taken into account in computing taxable income" under the existing tax code. And the fact is, the first $250,000 in profit on the sale of a primary residence (or $500,000 in the case of a married couple) is excluded from taxable income already. (That exclusion doesn’t apply to vacation homes or rental properties.)
The Joint Committee on Taxation, the group of nonpartisan tax experts that Congress relies on to analyze tax proposals, underscores this in a footnote on page 135 of its report on the bill. The note states: "Gross income does not include … excluded gain from the sale of a principal residence."
And just to be sure, we checked with William Ahern, director of policy and communications for the nonprofit, pro-business Tax Foundation. "Some home sales would see a tax increase under this bill," Ahern told us, "but it would have to be a second home or a principal residence generating [a gain of] more than $250,000 ($500,000 for a couple)."
So there you have it. The sort of people who would have to pay the tax might include, for example:
  • A single executive making $210,000 a year who sells his $300,000 ski condo for a $50,000 profit. His tax on the sale of that vacation home would amount to $1,900, in addition to the capital gains tax he would have paid anyway.
  • An "empty nester" couple with combined income of over $250,000 a year who sell their $1 million primary residence to move to smaller quarters. If they cleared $600,000 on the sale, they would be taxed on $100,000 of the profit (the amount over the half-million-dollar exclusion). Their health care tax on the sale would amount to $3,800 over and above the usual capital gains levy.
However, a typical home sale would not incur any tax. In March, for example, half of all existing homes sold for $170,700 or less, according to the National Association of Realtors. Obviously, none of those sales could possibly generate a $250,000 profit, and so none would be subject to the tax.
Thus, for the vast majority, the 3.8 percent tax won’t apply. The Tax Foundation, in a report released April 15, said the new tax on investment income (including real estate) "will hit approximately the top-earning two percent of families" when it takes effect in 2013.
Footnote: Some of the chain e-mails that claim ordinary home sales will be taxed include a copy of an article written by Paul Guppy, a policy analyst with the conservative Washington Policy Institute (that’s Washington state, not Washington, D.C.). The article appeared March 28 as an op-ed in the Spokane, Wash., Spokesman-Review, and Guppy claimed that "[m]iddle-income people must pay the full tax even if they are ‘rich’ for only one day." That brought a quick rebuttal from Sara Orrange, the government affairs director of the local Realtors association. She wrote a letter to the newspaper calling Guppy’s article "inaccurate" and saying, "Most people who sell their homes will not be impacted by these new regulations. This is not a new tax on every seller, and that correction needs to be made." In a news article the next day, business reporter Bert Caldwell confirmed that only "a very few" home sellers would pay the 3.8 percent tax.
The Internal Revenue Service says that to qualify for the $250,000/$500,000 exclusion, a seller must have owned the home and lived there as the seller’s "main home" for at least two years out of the five years prior to the sale.
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Old 10-04-2010, 06:29 PM   #13
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Read the bill. H. R. 4872 Final as passed by both House and Senate.
Chapter 2A Sec. 1411
It's too long to post the full thing but Factcheck has it right.


Link
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/...4dYbh:e101420:
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Old 10-04-2010, 07:06 PM   #14
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I'll take the word of factcheck.org and the actual wording of the bill.......not some unnamed unverified source.
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Old 10-04-2010, 07:12 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SueMI View Post
I'll take the word of factcheck.org and the actual wording of the bill.......not some unnamed unverified source.
Me too! I certainly was dreading having to eat my words!
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Old 10-04-2010, 07:13 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by WindwalkerII View Post
Read the bill. H. R. 4872 Final as passed by both House and Senate.
Chapter 2A Sec. 1411
It's too long to post the full thing but Factcheck has it right.


Link
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c111:2:./temp/~c111S4dYbh:e101420:
Thanks WW!!!!
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Old 10-04-2010, 07:35 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by SJR View Post
Me too! I certainly was dreading having to eat my words!
...and if we are proven wrong, we will eat our words.

...but the facts just don't seem to say we are wrong.
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Old 10-04-2010, 07:48 PM   #18
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Factcheck is wrong on this one. The bill was read to us as it was passed in one of our meetings.
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Old 10-04-2010, 07:50 PM   #19
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I read the part of the bill that WW linked to.

Tell me where does it say that in the bill?

I do not see it. I see what every other source has said........that the email in the OP is wrong.
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Old 10-04-2010, 07:56 PM   #20
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I don't have the bill nor do I care to look it up. I know what we read therefore I believe it. It really doesn't matter to me if any of you believe it or not. I know what the bill that passed said in reference to the taxes. Like I said we've been fighting it for a long time and everyone in the building industry is very upset over the loss. I don't usually post over here but wanted to make sure that the truth was told although I don't know why I did since none of you really care what the truth is.
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Old 10-04-2010, 07:57 PM   #21
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Here is one snippet that relate to this topic:


Quote:
`(iii) net gain (to the extent taken into account in computing taxable income) attributable to the disposition of property other than property held in a trade or business not described in paragraph (2), over
It's the only part that relates to property.
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Old 10-04-2010, 08:03 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by kayhil View Post
I don't have the bill nor do I care to look it up. I know what we read therefore I believe it. It really doesn't matter to me if any of you believe it or not. I know what the bill that passed said in reference to the taxes. Like I said we've been fighting it for a long time and everyone in the building industry is very upset over the loss. I don't usually post over here but wanted to make sure that the truth was told although I don't know why I did since none of you really care what the truth is.
Geesh......
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Old 10-04-2010, 08:32 PM   #23
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It seems that, once again, the fact that there is legitimate disagreement and, apparently, difficulty in fully understanding this bill (now passed to law) that it is poorly constructed, poorly thoughtout and a bad idea, generally.

Why, when there is so much trouble in deciphering it, it should not have gone through that way.

If the people who know about these things, don't know know (or disagree with the interpretations of) these things, it is a bad bill.
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Old 10-04-2010, 08:49 PM   #24
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If I'm wrong, I will gladly admit it. I have no problem accepting the truth if it is presented as fact. I do have a problem with rumors. I thought Factcheck.org was a reputable source.
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Old 10-04-2010, 08:51 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by kayhil View Post
I beg to differ with you but this is true. In 2012 everyone who sells a house will have to pay 3 1/2 percent sales tax on a house they sell. Not on the profit but on the sales price. It was pushed through with the Health Care bill. Our National Home Builders Association has been fighting this bill for several years but lost the battle. Even the Democrats in the building industry were helping us to fight this bill.
Nope, you're wrong.

First tip off should be: People who buy things pay sales tax. Not people who sell things.

What people are confused about is a new tax on investment income for high earners.

It's not a sales tax. It's an additional tax on what most if not all high earners ( and most if us) pay fir Medicare. But most of us only pay it as a tax on earned income not investment income.

"The health care law imposes a 3.8 percent tax on the investment income of couples who make more than $250,000 or individuals who make more than $200,000. That investment income could include income from real estate transactions. But it would only apply to those high earners, who make up less than 5 percent of all taxpayers. We're not sure why the e-mail extrapolates this tax to all real estate transactions, but that's the only 3.8 percent tax we could find in the new law. We ran this by two tax policy experts who confirmed our analysis of the new law."
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Old 10-04-2010, 08:52 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by kayhil View Post
I don't have the bill nor do I care to look it up. I know what we read therefore I believe it. It really doesn't matter to me if any of you believe it or not. I know what the bill that passed said in reference to the taxes. Like I said we've been fighting it for a long time and everyone in the building industry is very upset over the loss. I don't usually post over here but wanted to make sure that the truth was told although I don't know why I did since none of you really care what the truth is.

If you really " want the truth to be told" get the facts. They are easy to find.

The new regulation you are confused about is new IRS Code Code Section 1411. It might be worth a read to clarify your misunderstanding, as it clearly does not apply only to home sales and clearly applies only to incomes above a certain amount

Last edited by Sal Monella; 10-04-2010 at 08:57 PM.
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Old 10-04-2010, 09:25 PM   #27
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This may be truth but it is far from "simple". Well-meaning, careful people are investigating and coming-up with different answers. THIS is not simple.

Poorly written, poorlly handled, omnibus bill.
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Old 10-04-2010, 09:30 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by norphan View Post
This may be truth but it is far from "simple". Well-meaning, careful people are investigating and coming-up with different answers. THIS is not simple.

Poorly written, poorlly handled, omnibus bill.

It's Internal Revenue Service Code section 1411.

And it's really not that complicated, should you choose to actually read it. I did.
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Old 10-04-2010, 10:04 PM   #29
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It's Internal Revenue Service Code section 1411.

And it's really not that complicated, should you choose to actually read it. I did.
I agree. It is not really that complicated. Even though SJR, Snopes, and Fastcheck are right I'm still not crazy about that section. However, that is one of the sections that sets rules that help pay for Medicare. There are others that help pay for other parts of the bill.

Any confusion is caused by those who what to put fear into people so they will push to let it be repealed. Take one or two sentences out of one little section, stretch the truth just a little and you get people to believe it.
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Old 10-04-2010, 10:12 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by kayhil View Post
I beg to differ with you but this is true. In 2012 everyone who sells a house will have to pay 3 1/2 percent sales tax on a house they sell. Not on the profit but on the sales price. It was pushed through with the Health Care bill. Our National Home Builders Association has been fighting this bill for several years but lost the battle. Even the Democrats in the building industry were helping us to fight this bill.
I went to the NHBA website and can find nothing on this subject. I have not heard of this before the Healthcare bill was passed. How has the NHBA been fighting it for years? Has it come up before this Congress started working on H. R. 4872?

You may not believe Factcheck but how can you deny the actual words of the bill as passed?
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Old 10-05-2010, 09:13 AM   #31
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Quote:
I don't usually post over here but wanted to make sure that the truth was told although I don't know why I did since none of you really care what the truth is.
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And it's this kind of ignorant, judgemental crap that makes us happy that you don't post here often.
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Old 10-05-2010, 10:30 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by WindwalkerII View Post
I went to the NHBA website and can find nothing on this subject. I have not heard of this before the Healthcare bill was passed. How has the NHBA been fighting it for years? Has it come up before this Congress started working on H. R. 4872?

You may not believe Factcheck but how can you deny the actual words of the bill as passed?
http://www.nahb.org/news_details.asp...0597&fromGSA=1

"Health Care Tax Changes to Have Little Impact on Principal Residence Sellers




April 19, 2010 - Among the many policy changes in the recently enacted health care legislation (click here, for a story in the April 5 NBN), builders and the residential construction industry should be aware of two tax policy changes in particular:
  • New Tax on Capital Income

    Set to take effect in 2013, a tax increase on capital income - such as capital gain and rents - will affect some real estate investments. However, it should have a negligible impact on sellers of principal residences.

    The new 3.8% Medicare tax on so-called unearned income will affect high-income taxpayers who report taxable income due to capital gains and other non-wage income. It will not affect income that is currently tax-exempt, including most capital gain due to the sale of a principal residence (due to the $250,000/$500,000 gain exclusion rules). Taxpayers with less than $250,000 in income will not see any increase in tax.

    Under prior law, Social Security and Medicare benefits are financed by payroll taxes on wages. The tax is equal to 12.4% of covered wages up to a maximum amount ($106,800 in 2010), with half paid by the employer and half paid by the employee; and 2.9% of covered wages uncapped, again with half paid by the employer and half paid by the employee. Self-employed individuals - including independent contractors - generally pay both the employee and employer parts of the tax. Unearned income (e.g. rents, dividends, interest and capital gains) were not subject to these taxes.

    As a result of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act of 2010, this system is changing. Under revised law, the Medicare tax will increase for taxpayers earning more than $250,000 (if married) or $200,000 (if single). In particular, the individual's Medicare portion of the tax - which was previously 1.45% or half of the 2.9% - increases to 3.8%, but only for certain income amounts. The rate of 3.8% applies to the smaller of: (1) the amount of income above $250,000/$200,000 of modified adjusted gross income; or (2) net investment income. The tax also applies to self-employed individuals.

    Net investment income is the sum of income from interest, dividends, annuities, royalties, rents and capital gain - except income derived from active participation in a trade or business, including sole proprietorships, partnerships and S Corporations.

    As noted earlier, tax-exempt unearned income (excluded gain from the sale of a principal residence or interest income allocable to a tax-exempt bond) is not subject to this new tax.

    Here are two examples:
    • Suppose a couple has wage income of $260,000 and $9,000 in capital gains. The extra 3.8% tax applies to the smaller of $19,000 (the difference between $269,000 and $250,000) and $9,000. $9,000 is smaller, so the increased tax is equal to $342 ($9,000 times 3.8%).
    • Suppose a couple has wage income of $50,000 and gains income of $210,000. The extra 3.8% tax applies to the smaller of $10,000 (the difference between $260,000 and $250,000) and $210,000. $10,000 is smaller, so the increased tax is equal to $380 ($10,000 times 3.8%). "
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Old 10-05-2010, 10:38 AM   #33
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Thanks for the info and the link bluemoon. I went to the NHBA.com site because that's what Kayhil posted. Apparently there are two different associations with different websites. Confusing to someone not in the industry.

I appreciate you clearing this up.
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Old 10-05-2010, 10:41 AM   #34
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I don't have the bill nor do I care to look it up. I know what we read therefore I believe it. It really doesn't matter to me if any of you believe it or not. I know what the bill that passed said in reference to the taxes. Like I said we've been fighting it for a long time and everyone in the building industry is very upset over the loss. I don't usually post over here but wanted to make sure that the truth was told although I don't know why I did since none of you really care what the truth is.
Kayhill..I don't know what you read but it was not the bill that is now law. Is there a tax? Yes... a medicare tax not a sales tax. Is it on all homes? NO..only on certain homes/owners. It's not that complicated to understand the truth. Deal with it.
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Old 10-05-2010, 10:42 AM   #35
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I have a feeling we can post every fact and source we can find....but it won't make a difference for some people.

I'm still shaking my head at this statement:

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I don't usually post over here but wanted to make sure that the truth was told although I don't know why I did since none of you really care what the truth is.
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Old 10-05-2010, 10:43 AM   #36
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This may be truth but it is far from "simple". Well-meaning, careful people are investigating and coming-up with different answers. THIS is not simple.

Poorly written, poorlly handled, omnibus bill.
While the bill may indeed be poorly written to some, it is pretty evident to me that "well meaning, careful" people are skewing the facts to suit their personal agenda.
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Old 10-05-2010, 10:55 AM   #37
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Nope, you're wrong.

First tip off should be: People who buy things pay sales tax. Not people who sell things.

What people are confused about is a new tax on investment income for high earners.

It's not a sales tax. It's an additional tax on what most if not all high earners ( and most if us) pay fir Medicare. But most of us only pay it as a tax on earned income not investment income.

"The health care law imposes a 3.8 percent tax on the investment income of couples who make more than $250,000 or individuals who make more than $200,000. That investment income could include income from real estate transactions. But it would only apply to those high earners, who make up less than 5 percent of all taxpayers. We're not sure why the e-mail extrapolates this tax to all real estate transactions, but that's the only 3.8 percent tax we could find in the new law. We ran this by two tax policy experts who confirmed our analysis of the new law."
Bingo! that sentance says it all.
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Old 10-05-2010, 11:04 AM   #38
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Well, it appears that kayhill just did a "hit and run".

Oh well, it was a topic we hadn't discussed before and we now have a variety of sources to quote....including the National Association of Home Builders.

NAHB has 175,000 members nationwide and builds 80% of the nation's new homes.

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Old 10-05-2010, 11:09 AM   #39
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Thanks Bluemoon! I sent the link and info to my friend.
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Old 10-05-2010, 11:23 AM   #40
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Thanks Bluemoon! I sent the link and info to my friend.
Good try but with such closed minds and hatered towards the current administration, I doubt it will do any good. Sad really.
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Old 10-05-2010, 11:32 AM   #41
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I find it simply amazing that you can post a link to the actual bill and they won't go read it or believe it if they do read. All they want to believe is what some Republican troublemaker has told them.

And then they criticize the liberals for not believing "their" truth.
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Old 10-05-2010, 11:56 AM   #42
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I find it simply amazing that you can post a link to the actual bill and they won't go read it or believe it if they do read. All they want to believe is what some Republican troublemaker has told them.

And then they criticize the liberals for not believing "their" truth.
I don't understand their mentality. I suppose their hate is so deep they ignore the truth. You can present it to them and they will not even read and admit they are wrong.
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Old 10-05-2010, 12:10 PM   #43
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I don't understand it either SJR. Why wasn't a link provided for us to read?

It looks like a link wasn't provided.........because it just plain doesn't exist.
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Old 10-05-2010, 03:11 PM   #44
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I think that dems like to wallow in the misery of abject "hate" being directed towards them by hateful and selfish republicans ("republicans", not repugs--the repugs are the politicians, the republicans are the plain-folk who are registered republicans). It is so much easier to point a finger at hatred and ignorance than to try to understand why perfectly good people choose not to trust their government.
So much has been slipped under every government door, and into every bill, that it is not (or, at least, SHOULD not be) a surprise to anyone. Our citizens have been hoodwinked so often and so egregously that we are constantly fighting the desire to hide under our covers.
I can't trust YOUR sources, but what's worse, I can't trust MY sources! It is impossible to know where to turn or who to believe. I'm surprised that you folks are so comfortable taking the word of a source that you have been TOLD is reliable but who really knows? You didn't believe anything the bush administration told you...and that was fair. WE don't believe anything the Obama administration tells us, and that is also fair. The congress is so corrupt that it really doesn't matter whether or not the presidential administrations are corrupt, stupid or mearly inexperienced...they are still not to be trusted.
The "health" plan is enormous. It is like the bible--what it promises on this page, it takes back a hundred pages down the road. And who knows ANYTHING for certain? Most of the congresspersons had several aids reviewing different sections of the thing--are we certain that the aides didn't notice when one section affected another?
I want to believe that many people (congressional, administrational, voters) sincerely want to help people. And I DO believe that the country needs a "health CARE" plan that will work for the vast majority of us (nothing is perfect). I even FAVORED this bill as a beginning. But I'm starting to think that my trust was misplaced and this plan is not what was promised (even after it was hacked-back to accomodate the blue-dog dems).
I'm not saying that it should be cancelled. But I AM saying that the dems (and the repugs, if they can ever move themselves to be responsible to their constituents) need to get started now, to figure how to cut this thing back, clean it up,remove the pork, and make it so that the least of us can fully understand it.
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Old 10-05-2010, 03:37 PM   #45
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I can't trust YOUR sources, but what's worse, I can't trust MY sources! It is impossible to know where to turn or who to believe. I'm surprised that you folks are so comfortable taking the word of a source that you have been TOLD is reliable but who really knows?

Personally, I don't have much trouble discerning facts from misstatements and lies.

And I don't have any trouble finding reliable sources for information.

Despite all the misinformation in this thread about a sales tax on real estate (completely untrue) it is a fact that the Medicare tax on investment income for high earners was not just slipped into the bill. It had long been under discussion.
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Old 10-05-2010, 05:04 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by norphan View Post
I think that dems like to wallow in the misery of abject "hate" being directed towards them by hateful and selfish republicans ("republicans", not repugs--the repugs are the politicians, the republicans are the plain-folk who are registered republicans). It is so much easier to point a finger at hatred and ignorance than to try to understand why perfectly good people choose not to trust their government.
So much has been slipped under every government door, and into every bill, that it is not (or, at least, SHOULD not be) a surprise to anyone. Our citizens have been hoodwinked so often and so egregously that we are constantly fighting the desire to hide under our covers.
I can't trust YOUR sources, but what's worse, I can't trust MY sources! It is impossible to know where to turn or who to believe. I'm surprised that you folks are so comfortable taking the word of a source that you have been TOLD is reliable but who really knows? You didn't believe anything the bush administration told you...and that was fair. WE don't believe anything the Obama administration tells us, and that is also fair. The congress is so corrupt that it really doesn't matter whether or not the presidential administrations are corrupt, stupid or mearly inexperienced...they are still not to be trusted.
The "health" plan is enormous. It is like the bible--what it promises on this page, it takes back a hundred pages down the road. And who knows ANYTHING for certain? Most of the congresspersons had several aids reviewing different sections of the thing--are we certain that the aides didn't notice when one section affected another?
I want to believe that many people (congressional, administrational, voters) sincerely want to help people. And I DO believe that the country needs a "health CARE" plan that will work for the vast majority of us (nothing is perfect). I even FAVORED this bill as a beginning. But I'm starting to think that my trust was misplaced and this plan is not what was promised (even after it was hacked-back to accomodate the blue-dog dems).
I'm not saying that it should be cancelled. But I AM saying that the dems (and the repugs, if they can ever move themselves to be responsible to their constituents) need to get started now, to figure how to cut this thing back, clean it up,remove the pork, and make it so that the least of us can fully understand it.
In this particular case, several sources were used to back up the claim that the tax is not a sales tax but a tax on gains -- factcheck, snopes, national assoc. of home builders, wording of the bill. No one posted any sources except an email supporting the sales tax claim. I believe the side that posted the sources.

Slipping pork and other things into bills is hardly a new or democratic party practice. One role of the media is to report it to the public.
Unfortunately, they cater to a public who are more interested in the lives of celebrities than issues that actually affect their lives. You also have a public who would rather see, hear, read the other side get bashed than actually learning all sides of an issue. Many also believe anything about the other side without question.

The problem with Congress is not they are corrupt, but they are so divided, requiring 60 votes for practically every bill to get passed. It does not seem like anyone works with the other side to get anything passed for the good of the American people and to move our country forward.

Congress also needs time to read a bill and to think about it before voting. There needs to be a public debate. IMO, if there was more time to learn about the bill, then there would be less misconceptions about it.

I don't like the current health care bill; we should be able to do much better. However, I don't want it scaled back either.
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Old 10-05-2010, 05:10 PM   #47
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what blue and Sal sez - And, I can read so thus, I can be informed.
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